Sam Donaghey
Welcome to the Fast Slow Motion Podcast, where we teach you how to build a business you love while enjoying your life. I’m your host, Sam Donaghey, and today joining me is co-host of Fast Slow Motion, and that’s our Chief Operating Officer, Matt Dyer. Matt, it’s awesome to have you on the mic with me today.

Matt
Happy to be here, Sam.

Sam Donaghey
Well look, we’re absolutely thrilled for today’s episode. ⁓ Matt, you’ve got a long history with our guest. It’s someone whose work has made a big impact on how businesses think about buyer behavior and website conversions. So why don’t you go ahead and introduce him for us today.

Matt
Yeah, thank you, Sam. So I am so happy to introduce my dear friend Rishi Rawat to the podcast today. He and I go back over a decade and once upon a time, I received what I would consider to be the best cold outreach marketing email I’ve received in my entire career. It was an email that I received, I read, and I just knew I had to respond to it.

and Rishi didn’t disappoint. So over a decade and a couple hundred conversations later, I have learned so much from this man, which is why I’m excited that he’s here adding value to our listeners today. Thank you so much, Rishi. ⁓ He is the CEO of Frictionless Commerce, which is an organization that works with companies to improve their conversion rate optimization. And he’s coined this term that I find fascinating called the almost buyer.

⁓ which is somebody who gets to the purchase, they can’t quite pull the trigger, they reach right to the edge, but they ultimately end up walking away. So Rishi, we’re excited for you to unpack the almost buyer a little bit more for us today. And then also just talk about optimization principles that you use in B2B and B2C sales. So man, so happy that you’re here. Can’t wait to dive in.

Rishi Rawat
Yeah, I’m super excited to be here and, and, you know, talk about these topics. think in order to like really talk about this almost buyer, I need to dial all the way back to when I was like 16 years old. And I remember walking into a retail store and the way the store was laid out was that the entrance was from a higher level. So as you step in, you can actually see the layout of the store. And I remember looking to the extreme left. This is pre-internet.

I remember looking to the extreme left and seeing the store owner, assume, I presume the store owner sitting at the cash register and they had, you know, they had maybe like five or six aisles and I had to go to one of the aisles and I think it was a fabric store. And so I walked up to one of the aisles and I was looking, I was supposed to shop at one of the aisles and I noticed there was a customer at one of those aisles and I could see this very interesting behavior, which is that this person walked up to the item.

They looked at the item and you can make out from their body language. were, this was the item they were trying to mentally shortlist. Then they lifted it up and then they held onto it for five or six seconds. They inspected it. They put it down. He put it down. then turned around, started walking away from it, turned back, walked up to it, lifted it up again, and then finally decided not to buy it, walked out of the store. And I remember in that very short moment thinking that this owner

is at the end of the day going to tally up his cash register and conclude if he had a good day or not, having no idea about this almost buyer. And if he had known that maybe he could have walked up to this customer and had a conversation with him and actually captured the sale. And that was my insight. And this was, like I said, pre-internet, I completely didn’t have anything to do with this idea. I just kind of stored it in my head. And then when e-commerce became a thing, I realized that we actually

are now we can record all of this data and we can actually go back like a time machine. I can go back in time and I can see how many people who came to my website expressed or exhibited all of the behavior that would indicate that they were kind of leaning in to make a purchase but didn’t buy. And what would we kind of like, you know, like a football game after you’re watching the recording of the previous game to kind of predict what changes you need to make to your strategy.

for the next game coming up. And at that point in time, and this is the last thing I’ll say, this is important. At that point in time, the way e-commerce businesses, and again, I wanna be clear, what I’m talking about while my work is in e-commerce, I think the same principles apply to B2B, it applies to any kind of selling. But the metric that businesses would focus on was conversion rates. And so if their conversion rate was 4%, they would say, hey, you know what, are doing a, we’ve talked to our peers.

and our peers converted 2 % or 2.5 % and we’re at 4 % and that’s good. This is almost like a checklist. This is a problem that has been solved. Whereas the lens through which I was looking at was that forget about what their conversion rates are. Think about where your conversion rates could be. And if it could have been at 7%, you’re actually losing 3 % of revenue every single day. So I kind of was just looking at it from a different lens, but.

That’s kind of how I started focusing on this almost buyer because the people that were converting, they’re the buyers. And then there’s another group of people that will actually never buy. there’s very little and there’s very little you can do to actually get someone who comes to your website and leaves in 10 seconds to buy because that’s just a climbing Mount Everest. But these almost buyers, and if you could kind of like work backwards and figure out what that…

behavior attribute is that would cause you to categorize someone as an almost buyer. Now you have a bucket of customers that you can do something about. And so that’s essentially why I focus on that group.

Matt
Rishi, I’ve got a personal question for you. You gave us the almost buyer epiphany that you had at age 16. How did you go from that to starting your own business and launching Frictionless Commerce?

Rishi Rawat
Good question. So like I said, I didn’t do anything with that insight for many years. was actually, it was quite a while later that I kind of revisited that thought and I wasn’t actively thinking about it. I was, after I finished my undergrad in computer science, I always knew I was interested. I knew what I did want to do, which is to be a computer programmer. But I was like, what can I do with my time? And I really liked ⁓

creativity. liked print advertising. I really was drawn to print advertising. So I said, let me work for a digital marketing firm. And so I did that for a couple of years. And then at one point, analytics became a thing. And I realized that there was this shift coming that we had to contend with, which is that in the Don Draper era of advertising, we would come up with these ads and we would have no idea what worked and what didn’t work. We would say things like, we know that

50 % advertising works, we just don’t know which 50%. I knew that that was not going to be satisfying in the future now that we could collect and record all of this data. And so I kind of, ⁓ I thought to myself that, know, if these, all these businesses are collecting all this data and they’re so hyper fixated on their conversion rates, why don’t I reach out to some of them? Because they’re essentially like throwing away the data about people that didn’t buy it they don’t care. What if I could reach out to them?

Sam Donaghey
And I that’s kind of the reason why

Rishi Rawat
and tell them, you give me access to this secondary data that you’re not using

Sam Donaghey
I said that. I that’s kind of the reason why that.

Rishi Rawat
anyway? And if I could come up with some insights, then they could monetize that. And so it was this ridiculous idea, because I didn’t know of anyone who was trying to do that. But I’m prone to ridiculous ideas. And I just started pursuing it. And I just started sending cold emails to companies. after sending, I don’t know, 400 or 500 emails, I had like 10 or 12 companies that said, you know what? This actually kind of makes sense. And so they hired me and they said, OK.

We’ll give you access to our data. We’ll pay you for your time. And then the expectation is at the end of 30 days, you’ll come up with some insights. And I started studying data, and I started having really interesting insights. And they like those insights. And then that’s essentially how I got started on analyzing data that relates to these almost buyers.

Matt
So you’ve been doing this for quite a while. That’s safe to say. And when you first started out, correct me if I’m wrong, you were working on CRO in all kinds of pages and all kinds of ways and what it sounds like over the years, you whittled down to figure out what worked and what didn’t, which is how you became known as the product page guy, right? We’ll talk about that in a minute, but let’s double click on this for a second. What are…

Rishi Rawat
Yes.

Correct.

Matt
some of those common reasons why buyers have hesitation. Let’s jump into that.

Rishi Rawat
Yeah, know, you know, the people that are listening to this episode might not be able to see this, but behind me in the one corner of my room, I have the most valuable thing I own, which is like a reprint of 125 year old Sears catalog. And I just find like old school direct response marketing to be really fascinating. And so

The reason I mentioned this is that a lot of what I, even though I use the modern canvas of e-commerce, I actually draw most of my inspiration and most of my knowledge from the work that was done in traditional offline ways of selling. So I am very drawn to direct response copywriting. I’m also drawn to what salespeople do. And if you pay close attention to how salespeople operate,

They have a very specific way of dealing with leads. So imagine if you are a B2B business and you have like a hundred leads coming in every day. There are some leads where you can just look at that lead information and there’s a very strong signal that this is our ideal customer. So the sales guy obviously focuses on closing those leads, but then there are other leads that have incomplete information that have kind of very vague information and the sales person doesn’t have the option, doesn’t have the bandwidth to like investigate all of the hundred leads.

or that are coming in every day. So they’ve got these shortcuts where they say, okay, this lead I know is a slam dunk. So I’m going to deal with this person. This lead is absolutely not a good fit for me. But then there are these leads that are this in this in between zone where they have the right customer account. They have the right budgets. They have the right, you know, team buildup structure. And so that they focus on persuading that group. And so ⁓ that’s essentially where I kind of got this

this idea from was that, you know, we are trying to boil the ocean with the data that we collect. I think one of the things that CEOs will say is that, you know, we have a conversion rate of 4%. Why aren’t we converting all of our visitors? Like, why don’t you guys aim for the moon and just go after all visitors? And in a scenario where we had infinite budget and infinite time, that would make sense. Most marketing teams don’t have that. More importantly, most of the visitors on our website are…

potential customers are nowhere close to being customers. Like they’re just maybe they’re doing their due diligence and stuff like that. having some way of filtering out that audience is of critical importance. And so essentially that’s essentially how I kind of came about that.

Sam Donaghey
Rishi, you’ve seen a lot of bad copy out there. So what are the top three website copy mistakes you think businesses make?

Rishi Rawat
You know, so and some of these examples I’m going to give you, I won’t even categorize them as bad copy. But I think that I think we’re living in a different world. So one of the things that copywriters talk about is that your copy should not be about you. It should be about the buyer because the buyer is the hero of their story. And so there’s a lot of emphasis when I see direct response copy and I see descriptions and product pages where there’s a lot of emphasis on

⁓ making the buyer feel good about themselves and feel smart about choosing you. ⁓ I actually don’t think that’s necessary. I kind of take a different approach. My approach is to focus on demonstration of expertise. I think we’re living in a highly specialized world and people want to, that’s the reason why Sears isn’t doing well as a retail store because it’s the everything store.

I think customers would rather go to a specialist and talk to a specialist. And so I think it’s really important for your positioning to position you as a specialist. And I think oftentimes copy that I see on the web doesn’t do that. So that’s one example of something that it’s kind of controversial. People still disagree with me on that. And I think there’s a way to kind of balance that where you are demonstrating expertise, but at the same time, you’re making the buyer

the hero of that journey. So I think you can do both at the same time, but I think just making the buyer feel good about themselves is just not sufficient to kind of get them to get them to buy from you. The other mistake that I think brands make, and I think we’ve learned this from Amazon, if you go to Amazon, shop on Amazon, the product description is very greatly summarized. It’s usually just a few bullet points. And

I think that that works for a certain type of buyer. I don’t think it necessarily works for all types of buyers. So I’m really a big fan of long form copy. And ⁓ so I think it should at least be made available. And maybe you can have short copy and you can have a link that says, do you want the whole story? And someone who doesn’t care about that and just is happy with that short paragraph would have bought anyway. But someone who clicks on that link

is signaling to us that I actually want more details. And then for that audience, you surface a much longer description. That we are satisfying both at the same time. So those are two things that I can think about. I’m happy to give another example, but those two examples are the big ones.

Matt
So let me ask you this. It sounded like there was some, maybe some inspiration that you’ve taken from Donald Miller. You you probably get a lot of the story brand sort of framework in the work that you do. Talk to me a little bit about how those align and maybe did that inspire the work that you do?

Rishi Rawat
Well, I mean, the story brand does actually talk about making the buyer the hero of that journey, which I kind of so I think a lot of what they say I relate to. ⁓ But we’re also a little different. mean, this is one of the interesting things about my whole approach to marketing is that I’m like a self-taught musician. never went to I never got formal training on it. And I kind of like make it so sometimes I actually find it hard to or even be very knowledgeable about.

how different frameworks, and Matt, know you’re very much into frameworks. So I’m not, I can’t comment on, you know, I think there’s a lot of commonality between the story brand approach and what I talk about, but I can’t like, you know, have a one-to-one connection, but I do know that they focus a fair amount on making the buyer the hero of that story, which is something that I typically don’t do. I kind of like to use the analogy of when I go to my doctor, I think that’s a very useful analogy for me.

because I finally have agency on what prescription that doctor is recommending to me. But there’s no confusing that the doctor is the expert in that situation. And so I kind of think about that doctor analogy more than ⁓ the customer is the hero analogy.

Matt
Gotcha. So one thing that you and I just over the years have talked about is the framework that you used for CRO and you’ve identified a lot of different ways that you can improve copy. But we talked about three and you’ve already talked about the demonstration of expertise. Talk to us a little bit about price justification and the us-versus-them concepts.

Rishi Rawat
Yeah, yeah. So I kind of think of it as ⁓ almost like three pillars of the sale. And depending on the nature of the product you are selling and the awareness level of your buyer, you’re going to adjust how much you emphasize each of these points. So we talked about demonstration of expertise. That’s essentially the first thing you’re doing when the person first comes to your website. They have very little emotional connection to you. They have a very high degree of skepticism.

And so by demonstrating expertise, you are essentially showing your credentials. So you’re of slowing them down. Part of what I’m trying to do as a conversion optimizer is I’m actually trying to get them to not exit in 10 seconds. Because if they’re going to exit in 10 seconds, there is zero probability of them buying. So my first objective is, how do I get them not to exit in 10 seconds? Then my next objective is, how do I get them to not exit in 20 seconds and then 80 seconds? And I work my way up from there. So demonstrating.

expertise is a very effective way of getting them to linger a little longer. The next question that comes to their mind immediately following that is, your prices seem ridiculously high. In fact, we’ve done lots of surveys. We’ve run surveys for customers and we’ve asked them, like, what is the number one reason you don’t buy from us? I have never seen a survey where the number one reason wasn’t price. It’s always price. And the reason for that is because the mental… ⁓

arithmetic that the consumer makes. The thing is that when I’m buying a pair of running shoes or when I’m buying a new car, I don’t really have a point of reference. And I come up with some random estimate and my estimate is always conservative. And so when I see the actual price, you know, when you go to a car dealer and they say, OK, all included, your price is going to be so much. It’s always no one ever says, that’s cheaper than I thought it would be. Right. And so the next the next question in their mind is like, I didn’t budget for this. And they didn’t. And that’s the thing. If you budget, if you

If your mental ledger says, I’m willing to spend 100 bucks on something and you discover that the price is actually 175, that’s $75 you are now taking from some other budget that you weren’t planning to move from. And so I have to make a case why reallocating, redistributing $75 from some other ledger, I don’t even know what that ledger is, is of critical importance. And so that’s where price justification comes in. And I think a lot of times brands are so scared

I’ve actually had CEOs tell me this, that let’s avoid emphasizing talking too much about the price. The product page already has the price. Let’s not talk about it again. And to me, that’s a bad idea because that’s the thing that the customer is obsessed with. And so by just mentioning it once, you’re actually not dealing with the elephant in the room. so price justification is essentially a way through which the brand has an opportunity to talk about

why the price is what it is. And the reason why I talk about this is because when I interview CEOs and I tell them something like, know, 100 bucks is way too much money for whatever that item is, how would you like, how do you, how do you justify it? They have incredible responses for me. Like there’s so much that goes into product development. is choices about the quality of materials. There’s investment in customer service.

There is, know, features that they’ve added that customers didn’t even ask for, but they know they will appreciate. so price justification essentially to me is a way for the brand to just articulate some of these things that I don’t understand how brands expect visitors to read the CEO’s mind and figure out all of these things if it’s not written out right in front of them. So that’s why price justification is really critically important. And the third one, which is us versus them is, is very important for closing the sale.

So we’ve done demonstration of expertise, which means the person didn’t leave us in 10 seconds. We’ve done price justification. So now they’re little comfortable about the fact that, OK, I didn’t plan to spend 175 bucks, but I actually see the value of investing 175 bucks. But the one open file in their head is that, well, how do I know if there aren’t other alternatives that are as good or even better than this? Now, the problem is that, and we have data for this, 70 % of visitors never return. So

I think that there’s a risk factor if they leave our website. Now, sometimes CEOs will say like, well, our product is objectively the best, so I’m not scared of the competition. That may be true, but statistically speaking, 70 % never come back. So it’s a huge risk for me to take to just say, like, go look at our competitors. So the way I try to solve that is by describing in very specific ways our point of view and how our point of view is different. Now, we’ve run experiments where we actually try to be negative about the competition.

And actually that doesn’t work. That actually hurts conversion rates. But if you kind of like objectively try and describe why your product is the way it is and why you made the choices you did and acknowledge that there are some brands that have made slightly different choices, usually that, the way I think about it, and I should just mention this very quickly, is that when a shopper is shopping on a website, there’s actually a mental checklist in their head. They actually don’t know what that checklist is, but there is a checklist. So when they see,

us versus them content, it satisfies that checklist criteria. Now, some of them might still need more. And that’s why almost buyers is the group that I’m focused on. But for many of them, they’ll be like, you know what? This is enough information for me to kind of move forward. And that’s all I’m trying to satisfy. I’m trying to like affect conversion rates at close to that conversion horizon.

Matt
Would you say that almost buyers are more pessimistic or optimistic in their buying journey?

Rishi Rawat
I think it’s interesting. think they’re very optimistic when they first start their journey. And I think they get more and more pessimistic as they have to make an actual commitment. So it kind of like modulates a little bit. But I would say it’s both. mean, it’s the optimism that brings them this far. And it’s the pessimism that holds them back from making a purchase.

Matt
Okay, so a lot of our listeners are gonna be B2B. So we’ve talked about price justification, demonstration of expertise, us versus them. ⁓ Give me the pros and cons on how this applies to both B2C and B2B where you may have a company that doesn’t show their price on their website. Do you just overlook that concept or?

Do you double down on the other concepts? What sort of practices do you suggest?

Rishi Rawat
Yeah, I mean, I actually have a lot of experience with B2B as well. I once worked with a financial services company where they were using their paid search landing pages to ⁓ qualify leads. And they were spending $200,000 a month on paid search. So this was a very, important landing page for them. And I worked on that one landing page for two years. So I have a lot of experience on that landing page. And we essentially doubled conversion rates. So it had a significant material impact on the business. ⁓

And we use all the same principles that I applied to a B2C scenario to that ⁓ example. So we do personalize it obviously based on those situations. Like for that company, we were trying to do lead capture. We’re trying to get people to ⁓ give us their ⁓ banking information. So obviously I was constructing the story slightly differently. So Matt, to answer your question, if we cannot talk about pricing upfront, and I don’t think they also could talk about pricing upfront, we actually, what we did was,

we kind of had a call to action that said literally one of the best things to do is to have call to actions or links or whatever you want, clickable elements for people that aren’t familiar with CTAs, have a link that literally talks about the objection that the buyer has. So we would add a link that says, why aren’t you telling me prices upfront? And what would happen is that people that didn’t have that objection probably ignored that.

people that actually were stuck on that objection would hyper fixate on it click on it. Now what you do is you show up a lightbox or a pop-up that it specifically talks about just that reason. And you give a really good, and this is where A-B testing is so wonderful. I don’t have to place a bet on, okay, this is the best explanation for it. I can come up with the five different explanations and I can actually look at my data to tell me which of those explanations

ultimately led to them filling out the contact form. Because the only people that would read that copy and fill out their contact form are people that said, you know what, this makes sense. Because really the customer understands why you can’t give prices upfront. They just don’t know what your reasoning is. And I think by just talking about your reasoning, it’s a good, like I said, it’s a checklist. It’s good enough for them to have that conversation.

Sam Donaghey
Rishi, what are some of the highest return of investment changes that you’ve made for clients that surprised even you?

Rishi Rawat
Actually, there’s a bunch of them. mean, we’ve done over 500 different experiments, and we’ve learned a lot. I’ll mention a few things that I think are really critically important. So as I already mentioned earlier, making long form copy available, and I think for B2B customers, this is really important. So we’ve been taught in B2B Lead Capture,

We’ve been taught to have like a very simple landing page with a very simple form. And there’s a lot of debate about like, should the form have like four fields, should have five fields, should we break the form into like just showing two or three fields upfront and then have page two, have collect more information. We have all of that debate. Well, I think one of the things we should also do is we should have call to actions. We should have links on that page that allow people to, you know, I have this term of skimmers and diggers and

diggers just want more information. Matt is the kind of guy who likes to go down a rabbit hole and really explore stuff. And Sam, you might be a kind of guy who wants the abbreviated version of something. And I think we had tried to say, what’s the perfect version that would satisfy Matt and Sam at the same time? That is a wrong question to ask. I think the better question to ask is that, how do we allow Matt and Sam to self segment themselves?

so I can surface for them the content they need. And that experiments, those types of experiments have performed really well for us. So we’ll place these call to actions and we’ll notice that conversion rates go up for both the audiences. The people that wanted the short content are also happy because they’re not now inundated with this super long description. And then the people like Matt who wanted more are also satisfied. Another thing that I like to do, and this is really interesting, is that especially in a B2B scenario, this totally makes sense.

So most B2B decisions are actually quite complex because unlike a pair of running shoes where all said and done, I can just buy the running shoes and then return it if it’s not a fit. If I’m buying a B2B solution, I’m kind of like married to that for a long time so that the stakes are much higher. And the problem though is that behavior doesn’t reflect how important that is. So what I mean by that is that

the amount of time they spend on that page researching us is actually like under two minutes. Like, okay, wait a minute. If this is like the super important decision that you’re making as a business, why are you only spending two minutes? So I realized that one of the ways to actually get people to spend more time is it’s not sneaky, it’s a priming technique. What I do is when they come to the landing page, after the first introduction about what the product does, I’ll add a line that says, how important is this for you?

And there are three buttons. It says, not very important, kind of important, and super important. And guess what? Everyone picks super important. And when they pick super important, I basically tell them that, I’m glad you think it’s super important. We’ve spent 10 years working on this. Can you least give us five minutes of your time today? And what we find is that these people, because we are trying to be consistent with ourselves, once you’ve said something is important to you, ⁓ you actually want to spend more time on it.

And that’s exactly what I wanted them to do in the first place. yeah, so those are some examples of tests that I kind of theoretically, a lot of my ideas are theoretical and then I run experiments. it’s, you I would, you would expect that I shouldn’t be excited because I already predicted this, but there is a huge amount of excitement when you take a theoretical concept that I’ve never seen anyone do and actually have statistical data that says this actually changed people’s behavior.

Matt
So Rishi, Brass tacks, practical application. You’re a founder today. You don’t have an infinite budget. Maybe you’ve got ⁓ a lean team that you’re working with. You’ve talked about a lot of different things you can do on your website and with your copy. Where do you start? What’s one thing a founder should work on right out of the gate?

Rishi Rawat
Yeah, I mean, that’s the good thing about this question is that the answer is super relevant to a young team or a small team or a team with not that doesn’t have unlimited budget, but it applies just as much to a team that has a billion dollars. And that lesson is to communicate your point of view, communicate your point of view relentlessly all the time. I think that

You know, there’s this old saying that says you can’t see the label of the bottle by sitting in the bottle. I think all companies are inside the bottle. And I think that they overestimate how much visitors or their potential customers know about them. And they actually, the customers don’t actually know enough about them. so oftentimes CEOs and founders would be scared to talk a lot about themselves because they feel, well, you know, I don’t want to brag. I don’t want to make this about myself.

But actually, it’s exactly the information that the person needs in order to make an informed decision. So my recommendation is, even if you have a $100 budget, use that $100 to make sure that you look at your funnel and look at your marketing assets and say, are we talking enough about ourselves? And again, talk about yourself in a way that directly benefits the buyer. This is a key thing.

There’s no, I don’t want you to talk about yourself in a way that just like is like, here’s who we are. Nobody cares about that. But if you can talk about yourself in a way that directly makes Matt more money, then that is really interesting and make sure you’re doing that. And I would say that’s my recommendation is just talk about your point of view. I think sometimes brands are very scared to talk about their point of view because this is interesting as well, because we don’t want to alienate ⁓ certain segments of customers.

I find this fascinating

e-commerce. This happens all the time, but I think this is true for B2B as well. So if I have a client that sells online and they have a website and they have 100 products, and if I look at the actual sales data, I will find that four of those products are driving 60 % of sales. Now,

When I tell the client that I need to improve the product description, they’ll be like, oh my God, that’s crazy. That’s too much work. We have a hundred products. Who’s going to write copy for a hundred products? And my point is like, dude, no, you should just write copy for the four products that drive 60 % of sales. And I think, I think that sometimes we are scared of positioning point of view because we’re like, well, what if we were to say this about ourselves and alienate this one audience? And my question would be how much of your revenue is coming through that one audience? If it’s less than 5%.

I think it’s a fine trade off to make. ⁓ that’s the thing I would say is I think brands tend to assume that they can’t alienate anyone. And again, this might not be a popular thing to talk to your audience about, but I really believe in this, which is that you have to alienate someone in order to mean something to someone else.

Sam Donaghey
Rishi, as we near the end of this episode, what’s one mindset shift that you wish every business owner would make about their buyers?

Rishi Rawat
I think the biggest mind shift that I think about is that we assume that buyers can’t be persuaded or we can’t change their minds or opinions about things and we absolutely can. And so my recommendation would be to don’t assume you can’t influence your buyers. You can influence them and you should influence them.

Sam Donaghey
it and Rishi before we wrap up on every episode we ask our guests to leave us with a quote or a piece of wisdom so is there a quote that’s been meaningful to you in your work or your life that you’d like to share with our listeners?

Rishi Rawat
So there is a quote, I hope I don’t butcher it, but it actually something I discovered ⁓ when I was just finishing my MBA, I was ⁓ making a video portfolio for my ideas and I was, I actually included this in that video, but I’ll tell you what the quote is. It’s by George Bernard Shaw and the quote says, the quote goes something like this, the reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable one persists in trying to make

in persists in trying to make the world adapt to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

Sam Donaghey
Rishi, thank you so much for joining us today.

Rishi Rawat
It was a pleasure.

Sam Donaghey
Thank you for listening to the Fast Slow Motion Podcast. Remember to subscribe on your favorite platform and check out past episodes at fastslowmotion.com slash podcast. If you’ve got a topic or a question that you’d like us to cover, as always, you can reach out at fastslowmotion.com slash podcastfeedback and we’ll see you the next time.