This podcast is brought to you by Fast Slow Motion, a team of expert consultants that have helped hundreds of growing businesses build scalable systems on the HubSpot and Salesforce platforms. To learn more, visit fastslowmotion.com. When you start with trust, you establish this safe place for people to be vulnerable. You’re establishing trust between team members to have healthy conflict. You’re not going to have this fearful, uncomfortable feeling among the team. You’re really going to be able to rely on each other.

Welcome to the Fast Slow Motion podcast, where we teach you how to build a business you love while enjoying your life. In our podcast, we talk key learnings, cheat codes, hacks and principles that have saved us on our journey in the hopes that they serve you as well.

I’m your host, Sam Donaghy. And today I’m joined by Fast Slow Motion’s Martha Cyrill Nick. Hey, Martha. Lovely to see you today.

Hi. Thanks for having me, Sam. I’m excited to be here.

Martha, I’m really, really excited about today’s episode. So before we start, can you tell us a little bit about what you do at Fast Slow Motion?

Yeah, I’d love to. I’m a project leader here at Fast Slow Motion. I’ve been here for four years, coming up here pretty soon. Loved every minute of it. And I lead a team of consultants and implementation specialists that work with our development team and architect team to provide solutions to our clients.

So, Martha, on this podcast, we talk a lot about what it means to build a business that you love. Most entrepreneurs and leaders are definitely going to agree that an important characteristic of a business that they love is going to be a place where people actually enjoy work. I think it’s really hard to love a business if the environment just feels negative, and there’s a lot of factors that determine whether a work environment is going to be a positive one. But what we’d like to address today is something that we found to be really important here at Fast Slow Motion, and that’s having an atmosphere of trust. It’s something that doesn’t happen by accident, and it really takes a lot of intentionality from leadership in order to build it. You’ve managed a lot of teams both here at Fast Slow Motion and earlier on in your career, and you’re definitely highly valued here for your wisdom on how to build an environment of trust. So firstly, tell us why trust is so important.

I’ve been a part of teams basically my whole life, starting with sports teams. I played basketball through college, and then I’ve had amazing mentors throughout my career that have taught me what it takes to be a good team player and what it takes to lead a phenomenal team. And it all starts with trust, period. The end, right? Your team is only going to be as good as how strong your trust is. And so if you don’t build that foundation of trust, you’re really building a house that’s not built on a solid foundation. So if you hear nothing else from today, build your team with a foundation of trust and all the other pieces will really kind of fall in place. But it starts with trust because when you start with trust, you establish this safe place for people to be vulnerable. You’re establishing trust between team members to have healthy conflict. You’re not going to have this fearful, uncomfortable feeling among the team. You’re really going to be able to rely on each other and make decisions. And I love the concepts from The Five Dysfunctions of a Team that Patrick Lencioni wrote. A part of that is the pyramid that summarizes what makes a great team. Of course, the foundation or the base of that pyramid is trust.

So can you unpack that a little bit more — this pyramid from Patrick Lencioni’s book?

Absolutely. So like I said, the base of it, really the foundation, is trust. If you don’t have trust, you’re not going to be able to move forward in conflict, because it’s easy to run a business when things are going well. Those great days are awesome, but they are few and far between. And so you really need to make sure you’ve got a base layer or a foundational layer of trust. Trust is established through vulnerability. And when I mean vulnerability, it’s really what Brené Brown describes as emotional exposure. You’re really able to peel back a layer of yourself and feel okay about it. You might feel a little uncomfortable, you might squirm the first few times that you do it. But really what it does is it establishes that trust among the team. So being vulnerable with your team members starts to build the trust within the team.

And would you say that takes emotional intelligence as well — to be able to peel that layer back, make sure you share what’s important, without making things uncomfortable? Being able to say, you know, I’ve never done this before, or this is my mistake and I need to learn and do something better or differently.

Yes, that’s that vulnerability that you’re going to be establishing from day one, which then leads to that next layer of the pyramid — conflict. So when you have the trust established in your foundation, it helps you be able to have healthy conflict. What you don’t want is a team that fears conflict. When you fear conflict, you have really an artificial harmony. Patrick Lencioni talks about that. It really prevents you from being the best team that you can be, because conflict is really where some of the beautiful ideas come to life. Conflict is also just a healthy part of growing. And so if you really want to grow your business, you’ve got to establish that foundation of trust, and that’s where you’ll be able to have healthy conflict. And then from there, when you have healthy conflict, you’re going to be able to really commit solidly and buy in to what the team’s goals are. If you want to make sure that you’ve got solid buy-in, you need to make sure you have a trusting environment where you’re able to have conflict, and then when you make a decision, you’ve got the commitment and the buy-in from the team. And when you have commitment or buy-in, that’s when you can hold each other accountable — which is the next layer of the pyramid. Making sure you’re holding each other accountable, having that healthy conflict because you’ve established trust, so that people are accountable for their behaviors and their performance on the team, which then drives really phenomenal results. And so again, it all goes back to trust. How you establish trust on a team is through vulnerability. Once you have that trust established, you’re able to have healthy conflict, which leads to clarity and buy-in, which then allows you to hold people accountable, which then drives phenomenal results. It’s been something that I’ve shown every single team that I’ve been a part of since I was exposed to it about ten years ago. I go over a couple of exercises from this book on every team I’m on, because I want everybody to be aware — we’re starting here at trust and being vulnerable with one another.

Okay, Martha, what’s the difference between a team that has a lot of trust versus one that doesn’t?

Oh, man. You’ve probably felt it before when you walk into a room or a company where you know there’s low trust. You get an uncomfortable feeling right off the bat. There’s just a feeling or a cultural perspective that’s different — you can feel it to your core. And I think the biggest difference, beyond that feeling, is that teams with high trust simply are more successful. The biggest difference from a day-to-day level is that your team is going to enjoy the work more. They’re going to enjoy coming to the office or walking into the meeting, and they are going to be satisfied being a part of it. While sometimes these concepts can seem a little abstract, really when it comes down to it — if your team is excited to come in to work and excited to move your business forward each day, it’s going to create an incredible environment and help you grow your business faster. And again, just more enjoyable.

Martha, what would you say the steps are to actually create vulnerability within the team?

Yeah, there’s a few activities that really help establish a base layer of trust. It starts with an activity that’s going to be a little bit vulnerable — you’re going to feel a little uncomfortable, but it’s great. It’s defined in the book by Patrick Lencioni and it’s called a Personal Histories exercise. I’ve done this on every single team, and it’s just a starting point to really start to become vulnerable with your team. You’ll go around and answer three questions about yourself. The three questions he recommends are: Where did you grow up? How many siblings do you have and where do you fall in that order? And third, describe a unique or interesting challenge or experience from your childhood. You would not believe how much trust immediately gets established with those three questions. You’re sharing a little bit about your past, your history — not too deep, so it’s not super uncomfortable, but just enough to peel back that first layer to really start to understand each other on the team.

Here’s another tip: if you are looking to be an example of vulnerability on your team, as the leader, go first. In this exercise, you want to go first. In a meeting, when you don’t understand something, be the person that speaks up and says, “Hey, I’ve got a question about this. I just don’t understand it.” Being the example of vulnerability as a leader helps everybody take a big sigh of relief and gives everybody more comfort, because they know, “Oh, the leader at the top has a question too” or “They’re vulnerable — this is a safe space.” Some examples of how you can be vulnerable with your team: “Hey, I don’t know how to do this” or “I’ve never done this before, but I’ve got experience in X, Y, or Z that might help.” Or, “We don’t exactly know how to get there, but we’re headed in the right direction.” Or, “This isn’t my strongest area — can you help me with this?” Another way to show vulnerability is to say, without going into details, “Hey, I’m having a hard time with my spouse or my child or an aging parent. Something’s going on at home, and I just need you to know that for the next couple of days.” You’d be amazed — you don’t have to go into the details, but just knowing, hey, Martha has got something going on at home — let me give her a little bit of a break and understand where she’s coming from. Another way to share vulnerability is simply: “I’m sorry.” If something doesn’t go exactly as planned, just be able to say, “Yeah, I’m sorry — I made a mistake.” So again, just really practical ways to start establishing that vulnerability on your team. Start with your Personal Histories. Make it a point at your next meeting to go through those questions, go first as the leader, and then start to use those examples in meetings and with your team so that you create that safe space for others to be vulnerable as well.

I love that. I always remember internally at FSM where we had this company training and we were talking about imposter syndrome — what a great topic. A lot of people feel like they’ve got imposter syndrome, and I just remember thinking, “Wow, leadership is talking about this stuff and giving examples.” That for me is the definition of leadership showing vulnerability, and it really does trickle down to everybody else. So it is hard to be vulnerable, right? Not every culture is created equally. We’re very blessed at Fast Slow Motion — we do have that culture of vulnerability and transparency. Why would you say it’s so hard for people to be vulnerable and transparent?

Oh, gosh. It’s uncomfortable, right? It’s so uncomfortable. It’s hard to admit when you make a mistake. It’s hard to admit, “Hey, I don’t know exactly what’s going on here, and I need your help.” A lot of times we’re taught that that’s a weakness — showing your cards, right? But really what it ends up doing is showing a sign of leadership and strength. So if you lean into it and say, “This is going to take our team to the next level, this is going to take our business to the next level,” and lean into that uncomfortable feeling, know that it’s not showing your weakness — it’s actually showing your strength. Another reason why people don’t do it is they’re fearful of the consequences or the results. If team members — whether they’re new in their career or have been there forever — are fearful of the consequences of sharing something, they’re going to quit sharing. And so you’ve got to create that safe space for people to be able to share ideas, collaborate, be creative, and speak freely. That’s going to really help you establish a better space and get over that uncomfortable feeling of vulnerability.

You’ve already got two camps, right? If we compare them — one camp that listens to the podcast and says there are no stupid questions, but then you’ve got another camp sitting there thinking there are stupid questions. Where’s the balance? How do we strike that balance so people feel comfortable to share, but at the same time we’re being professional and knowing where you fit within the organization?

Yeah, absolutely. I think it starts with a personal understanding of each other. You’re right, there are probably two camps out there. But wherever you land on that, if your team knows you — if you have that established trust and they know that’s a part of your personality — they’re going to be more comfortable around you. And that’s essentially what we’re trying to get to: the ability to be open, candid, and frank with one another. So whether you believe every question is valid or there might be some stupid questions out there, what really matters is letting your team know that — sharing that part of yourself to establish the trust, which then allows others to be vulnerable around you. It’s going to give people a chance to see what the blind spots are on the team as well, and that’s going to help everybody fill those blind spots and really raise the team as a whole.

Which is why I love what we’ve done internally — using those behavior assessments and behavior insights that allow me to see, “Our team has this many characteristics and we don’t have any in this area,” so I’m able to see where those blind spots might be. And again, just understanding each other helps us build trust, which goes back to the foundation of a phenomenal team.

And going from there, how would you say being vulnerable and transparent actually builds that trust?

I think you’re able to dig one layer deeper and see there’s another human on the other side working with you, which then only allows you to be more comfortable in conflict, hold each other accountable, and really drive the results and decisions that you want to. Daniel Coyle has a great book called The Culture Code, and there’s a great story in it about the San Antonio Spurs — I always love a good basketball story. He talks about a vulnerability loop. When you have that vulnerability loop, basically you and I are in that loop: I send the signal of vulnerability, you detect that signal and respond by signaling your own vulnerability, I then pick up on that signal, and now this norm is established. We’ve become closer and our trust has increased. So the vulnerability loop does a great job of explaining how vulnerability builds trust.

And is this something that companies need to be hiring for as well? Should you be looking for someone who can show emotional intelligence and vulnerability in the interview process? Or is it something you can coach people on once they’re on your team?

I think it’s both. There are some questions you can probably ask in an interview. I remember one candidate who just flat out said, “I don’t know,” and I was like — that is a perfect example of vulnerability. I’d rather you say that than give me a false answer or something off the wall, because what it does is establish that you have self-awareness, you know what your limitations are. So yeah, I think you can hire for it, but I also think you can coach others around you. And again, it starts with the leadership — being an example of vulnerability and doing the activities. And this is something important to remind people: it’s not a one-and-done thing. When leading a larger team, I would do these exercises every six months. We were hiring, promoting, and going through a lot of change and growth. So every six months I’d have a reminder: “Hey, we need to go through a trust-building activity to reestablish that and make sure we’re all on the same page.” And how you do that is through the activities, through the resources. I would always remind everyone to do it over and over again. It’s never lost — it’s always a great investment of time.

You mentioned leadership just then, so what can leaders do to encourage vulnerability and transparency in their own organizations?

I would definitely say go through the activities we just mentioned — the Personal Histories exercise, start there. Be an example of vulnerability. It’s tough, but you’ve got to be the example for everyone else. Think about how you answer questions, what your tone is, making sure you’re creating that safe space for people to be vulnerable and to establish that trust. Really it comes down to leaning into it, being the example, and knowing that when you invest in this — when you invest in yourself and in these activities — the outcomes are only going to drive better results.

Building this kind of trust has obvious benefits for employees and dramatically improves the working environment, as we’ve found at Fast Slow Motion. Martha, I’m interested — what benefits are there for clients that come into contact with a business that prioritizes building trust in this way?

I think your clients can pick up on it. They’re going to trust you if they feel like that environment is safe and comfortable. So by creating the environment of trust, that’s the energy your clients are going to pick up on. And if your team members are enjoying the work — which they will be in a trusting environment — that’s contagious. Having trust established internally is only more attractive for people to do business with you. And you can take these principles into your meetings with clients as well. It’s not just for them to see internally — it’s the way that you’re going to speak to them. If we get on a client call and we’re having healthy conflict between the teams, again, that’s just being an example of it and showing that we can have conflict, resolve it, and get to a decision and a better result faster together — because we’ve got that trust.

Well, that’s it for today’s episode. Remember to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast platform, or you can find archived episodes at fastslowmotion.com/podcast.