Sam Donaghey
Welcome to the Fast Slow Motion podcast where we teach you how to build a business you love while enjoying your life. I’m your host Sam Donaghey and today I’m joined by Fast Slow Motion’s director of people, Michael Smith. Michael, it’s great to see you today.

Michael Smith
Great to be here. I’m looking forward to this conversation.

Sam Donaghey
Well, today’s episode is packed with wisdom for anyone that’s trying to build and lead a great team. We’re talking about how understanding behavior, your own and your teams

better hiring, better communication, and ultimately better results. Our guest today is Dr. Michael Abelson, founder of the Abelson Group. He’s been helping leaders build winning teams for decades through behavioral assessments, coaching, and leadership development. If you’ve ever used DISC,

or thought about how to align people with purpose, you’re going to love this episode. Dr. Abelson, awesome to have you on the podcast today.

Michael Abelson
I’m excited to be here with you guys and can’t wait until we get started.

Michael Smith
That’s great. Dr. Abelson, thank you for joining us. You’ve been working with business leaders and teams for a long time. And in our most recent conversation, you talked about that you’ve worked with teams of all sizes, from organizations of 10 people to 500 to even enterprise organizations of 5,000. What originally drew you to the world of behavior assessments and leadership consulting?

Michael Abelson
Well, it’s interesting. It’s really a convergence of a couple of aspects of my background. I have a master’s in clinical psychology. So I have somewhat of an understanding of how people operate. And then I have an MBA and a PhD in business management. So I understand the managerial concepts and the organizational concepts. And I’m sitting in my own business a number of years ago. Well, this is really in the 19 late 1990s when there were such things as a fax machine. And all of a sudden this fax came across.

and it had these 24 questions to answer. And it’s out of my curiosity, because I actually was trained on how to create assessments and things of that nature. I took it. And I expected to get something back that was terrible. What I got back was incredible, especially in those days. As far as its accuracy, its ease of reading. So I contacted these people, and I got involved with them in the late 1990s and have been doing it ever since.

And it’s just really exciting to see people’s faces when you point something out to them that they’ve been aware of for a while, but they’ve been sensitive about thinking about it themselves because they were thinking they were crazy. Okay. And all of a sudden say, no, you’re not crazy. It’s behavioral. And sometimes you have this internal conflict going on. It just makes sense. And man, all of a sudden that is so freeing for them. Right. So there’s those types of experiences and those types of things that

that are really exciting for me because one of my things is I want to help other people. And for me, the important thing is not money. The important thing is impact on people’s lives. So that’s why I did it. And it’s been great ever since, because we’ve done hundreds and hundreds of thousands of these assessments over the years.

Michael Smith
Yeah.

Well, thank you. I think it was about eight years ago, I traveled to Austin to sit under your leadership and teaching to learn more about behavior insights. And before the training, I was aware of the DISC model. But during that training session, you introduced me to the motivators assessment. And today at Fast Slow Motion, we actually have everyone take the combined assessment. I’d love for us to take just a moment and unpack each of those pieces. Can you give me a high level look at what the DISC model is?

Michael Abelson
Yes, and it’s important for people to realize there’s over 40 different DISC assessments out there. So just because you’ve taken one doesn’t mean you’ve taken a really good DISC. So, and most of them are not very good at all. And that’s one of the things that I love about the DISC. The way you use, I didn’t create it. I work with a company that revises it on a regular basis every several years, renorms it and makes it better. But anyhow, the DISC looks at behaviors and it looks at

four basic areas that go back to 440 BC, believe it or not, right? And then what has happened is our DISC actually looks at 384 different levels of those behaviors, not just the four. And the next closest one in accuracy only looks at 24 levels of those behaviors. So what happens is most people are really a true blending of the four basic styles.

But for some reason they get into their head that they’re only one or two of the styles of the four styles, when in essence they’re really a blending of it. And that’s one of the things that we train. So the DISC is a behavior profile. It’s not a psychological profile. It just looks at how we behave and people need to understand that. Because most people don’t understand it, tell you it’s a psychological profile, which it’s not. And that’s where the motivators come in, Michael. And it’s exciting for me to hear you say that, you know, because

The motivators looks at what’s underneath the behavior. So you can have somebody, two or three people that have very, very similar DISC profiles, but they’re very different. Well, that’s because our behaviors and personalities are much more complicated. And what the motivators do, it looks at what’s driving the behavior. For example, one of the styles likes to create structure. Another style loves to have that structure created for them already, right? One style is into efficiency.

whereas opposite style is into giving things away. So it’s wonderful because now I understand what motivates you because I can’t assume that it’s just money, right? That’s only one of the six or the 12, because we actually have two different models of motivators, right? So, which is really important to understand because you might want to be an environment that has things already set out for you. Or you might want to be an environment where you can have an impact on the structure and what happens next and take responsibility.

So if you say to somebody, well, why don’t you take more responsibility, but they feel more comfortable in an environment that gives them the structure, all of a sudden they’re looking at you like deer in headlights. If you’re giving somebody the structure, but they’re the kind of person who likes to create the structure, have an impact into the structure, OK, all of a sudden, and you say to them, this is what we want you to do, it’s kind of like, wait a minute, don’t I have a brain? So what’s really cool about all of this is

It’s important to understand what’s driving that person. And so you can really motivate people in what’s driving them, which increases their retention, increases their performance, increases their motivation. It’s just astounding to see what happens when you just don’t rely on money as a consequence or as a way to reward people’s behaviors.

Sam Donaghey
Dr. Abelson, this next question might fall into the category of motivation. I’m not entirely sure, but

people often talk about the how and the why when it comes to behavior. helps us understand how someone acts, but what about the why? How do these layers work together?

Michael Abelson
That’s the motivators is the why. Okay. Yeah. So it’s, what’s going on for you. Why is this important to you? Well, one of the areas that I mentioned before is this notion of selflessness or social like, mother Teresa like, right? Well, those people are driven by giving back to others. Whereas the opposites, we call them utilitarian and they’re driven by efficiency of time and resources and money and those types of things. So they look at you like, well, why are you doing that?

Sam Donaghey
That’s the motivator, yeah.

Michael Abelson
Okay, and the reason is because that’s the why that drives me.

Sam Donaghey
Mm-hmm.

Michael Smith
Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Well, we use these, this combined assessment during our hiring and onboarding process. We don’t use it at a benchmark as much, but for a, a tool of self-awareness. I use this phrase a lot around here that says, the more you know about yourself, the more you can communicate and lead those like you and not like you. So talk to us about how the assessment can help teams communicate more effectively.

Sam Donaghey
Love that.

Michael Abelson
Well, one of the neat things that we have in our team report is we actually have a graph. It’s a wheel and where people are placed on that wheel tells us what their behavior style is. So let’s look at it as a clock instead of a wheel. So somebody’s behavior is plotted at like 10 o’clock on the wheel. They’re opposite of somebody who’s at four o’clock to the wheel. So they might not get along with each other. They might be in conflict with each other. But once you see the wheel and you understand the strengths of the people at 10 o’clock,

and you understand the strengths of the people at four o’clock, well, let’s focus on the strengths of the people at 10 o’clock, let them do those types of things instead of trying to force them to do things that are like a four o’clock on this wheel. And the people that are four o’clock, let’s do that. Let’s let them do their thing and keep them away from things that are at 10 o’clock on the wheel. And all of a sudden the team looks at this and says, holy cow, I bring value that’s different from other people, but I need to respect the value that they bring because together,

If we have a wheel where there people on all different areas of the wheel, we have the opportunity of having all the behaviors that we need to be exceedingly successful in what we’re trying to do. But if we have a wheel that like, let’s say everybody’s in from 12 to three o’clock, you know, on that wheel, we’re going to have conflict, we’re going to have clashes, and we’re going to have all these types of behaviors that we really need to be successful, but they’re not there.

Michael Smith
Yeah, that’s pretty interesting statement. We look at the wheel and we use it a lot. the idea, I always talk to people about if they’re opposite from each other on the wheel, that they have to step into somebody else’s context to understand their communication style. But often I just an aha moment when when you have everybody on the same spot on well, you might get even more conflict when they’re all the same than if they are

Michael Abelson
And it’s something that’s a key, and that is the context. Okay, now when you’re taking the assessment, it’s important the context to which you’re operating because somebody can be different in their personal life than they are in their work life. Somebody can be different in their work life than they are if they volunteer, okay, to certain organizations. So it’s important when you take the assessment that you answer the questions in the context to which the report’s going to be used.

Sam Donaghey
Hmm.

Michael Abelson
Okay, all right, so it’s really important to realize that if not, if you just tell them take it in how they are at work, but you’re doing it in a religious or a church or some organization, okay, like that, they might be a different type of individual. So it’s important to realize that when you’re taking a DISC, which just goes back to say, yeah, I took the DISC last year, why do I have to take it again? Well, let’s give you this better DISC, number one, okay, and number two, let’s have you take it under these assumptions, okay, instead of some,

Michael Smith
Yeah.

Sam Donaghey
Right.

enough

Michael Abelson
Generic or general assumptions that you may have taken it on

Michael Smith
Yeah, we found that this tool is really helping us understand each other, but really is giving us a vocabulary to put behind those behaviors and communicate internally. We’ve also found that, I’ve heard you say this before, that all of this is observable behavior. Can you lean into that little phrase there, how you use that and how you unpack that with the team?

Michael Abelson
Well, it’s really interesting. I’m going to take a little aside here. We have people who tell us that they use it at home with their kids and their family. And if they have a D, sometimes the kids will say to their mom or dad, your D is coming out. So it’s kind of like ease up a little. Don’t be so D-ish. And they say it in a cute way. Now, if your kid had told you, mom or dad,

you’re irritating me because you’re just so pushy. Okay, now you’re gonna have a fight. All right, but if you do it in a cute way and you say, you your D is acting up or your I is acting up or your S is there. So you’re kind of withdrawn and you’re not really getting involved. All of a sudden it’s kind of like, well, let me think about that. Yeah, you’re right. Okay, let me be a little bit different, you know, and to do the behavior a little differently. I’m not sure if that was, you know, what you’re getting at with the question, but.

Michael Smith
Yeah, so let me give you an example. We teach this internally to our team so they understand themselves. We do the team wheel for every member on a team that operates like a project lead team of eight to 10 people. And my understanding is that if I can get them to understand themselves in each other, that they interact internally when they’re sitting with a client and looking across the table at somebody, can then once they understand the vocabulary and the traits,

Michael Abelson
OK.

Michael Smith
they can look across the table and go, do I need to step into that person’s context? Because I’m under the belief that we always try to communicate the way we want to be communicated to when sometimes we need to step into somebody else’s context.

Michael Abelson
That’s a great point and it is so true and it’s interesting when you have multiple people that are sitting across the table from you Okay, one of our markets is residential real estate as you know, you know and when you’re trying to get a listing You’re gonna have typically two people sitting, you know across the table from you. So how do you deal with that?

if it’s Somewhat easy and we actually have a training program to show people how to identify What people’s basic style or styles are without them even taking the assessment?

All right. But what happens is, let’s say the man is more assertive, will be stereotypic. The man is more assertive and the woman is more protective, you know, type of thing. So with assertive type statements, I would, first of all, I would check out that assumption to make sure it’s accurate. Okay. Cause that’s not always accurate. Sometimes the woman is, you know, in, in, in charge of things. All right. And, but anyhow, you know, look at that and see what’s going on for them and then interact with them.

how they’re interacting with you. All right, it’s called mirror matching. All right, so it’s important to do that because then there’s a better connection and they feel more comfortable with you and they’re more willing to share what’s going on for you. So you’re at a conference table, you’re talking about a task and the team has a challenge that just hits you. Okay, all of a sudden the CEO or a senior level person comes in and says, no, no, no, that’s not what I want at all. This is what I want and I wanted it yesterday.

Okay, so you better figure it out today. All right, so what happens? Well, everybody’s under stress at that moment and people sometimes act differently under stress or not under stress as we talked about in our certification program to show you how to determine that and deal with it. But anyhow, so what do you do? All right, well, there’s going to be somebody who’s an S who’s more supportive. Okay, team, we can do this. All right, you know, there’s going to be somebody maybe or hopefully that’s an I who’s going to be more optimistic. Yes, we can do this. We’ve done it before, know, rah rah rah, they’re more the cheerleader.

Okay. And then you have somebody who’s a C who brings in data and information. You know, I was looking at this the other night and I’m not sure if we looked at it correctly the first time because there is this going on and that going on and this going on. And I think we need to look at those types of things as well. Right. And then you have somebody who’s actually managing or leading the conversation. You know, they might be assertive where they’re interjecting. They might be a little bit more passive where they are facilitating, you know, a greater conversation going on because that’s your leadership style.

But that might be more a D-ish person. So what happens is you have people from the different areas that are contributing and working together. And you don’t want the people who are data-driven to say hush up to the people who are talkative. And they understand that when we go through a team program, because it’s kind of like, hey, just because you’re data-driven doesn’t mean everybody is. Let’s look at your strength. And just because the person is a little chatty doesn’t mean you ought to shut them down.

Michael Smith
Right.

Michael Abelson
because they need to have that opportunity to share what’s going on for them, just like you have to have the opportunity of sharing the data and the information, because that’s what makes the team work.

Michael Smith
Yeah, thank you for those insights. You know, as I look out in the marketplace about assessments and stuff, it seems like there’s a new one being developed every day that they’re trying. what I’d like to know is, you know, I know you’re all in with this TTI Talent Insights, and especially a DISC and the motives together. What sets this apart from other assessments?

Michael Abelson
Yes.

Well, there’s two things that really set it apart. One of the is the assessment. So let’s talk quickly. All right. The accuracy is uncanny. I just did this with a group of leaders in the Denver area last week. All right. And there was a small group. There were only nine people. And one of the things I do initially is I go in and look at the accuracy. So I validate the report. Right. Everyone in the room said it was 95 % accurate or greater.

And I pointed out, have you ever taken an assessment that’s that accurate? No. So all of a sudden there’s the confidence in it because it is accurate. Now, it’s not always going to be that accurate. I’m not going lie to you and tell you that it always is. I’m just giving you one example that just happened last week. But it’s easy to use. It’s in almost 50 different languages. So we can go international with you with it, which is great, or stay in the States because it’s such a melting pot anymore. And we can convert it from.

that language to English if that’s an issue. But anyhow, it’s very functional. It’s applied. It’s not evaluative. It’s a descriptive tool so people don’t get defensive from it because it talks about description. It describes things. It’s written at the fifth to eighth grade level. they re-norm it every three or four years because the culture changes. So that’s one aspect. The other one is it’s not the size of the wand. It’s the skill of the magician.

So whoever you’re working with, whether it’s us or somebody else, make sure they know what they’re talking about. So many times you have somebody who’s a salesperson who really doesn’t understand these concepts. They might be a fantastic salesperson. Okay, that’s great, but they don’t understand the concepts. They don’t understand what the true need is. All right. So, so look at the skill of the person. If they call it a personality profile, I’m telling you right now, they really don’t know what they’re talking about. Okay. And there’ll be other things that you can pick up.

to determine whether they know what they’re talking about or not. right? But, you know, and ask them the validity. Another thing that separates ours is it’s compliant with equal employment opportunity law. So even though you guys don’t use it for hiring, it can be used for hiring and it doesn’t discriminate, okay, on the protected classifications in the US, okay, which is great as far as the different classifications is concerned, but even better, that just points to how accurate it is,

Michael Smith
Yeah.

Michael Abelson
that it doesn’t differentiate on a negative way. So those are some of the differentiating factors that I would recommend everybody looks at before you actually contract with an assessment person or organization. You need to evaluate it. Don’t assume that they’re all good because they’re not.

Michael Smith
Well,

yeah, that leads me into this next question. So leaders who are thinking about starting to use something like this, whether it’s this one or another one, what’s a good first step for them to think about?

Michael Abelson
Well, they might want to go and they might want to talk to other people in their industry, okay, to see what they’re using, if they’re using anything. and then they might want to really quiz them, you know, on, on why they’re using it. Sometimes it’s just because there’s a good salesperson or sometimes it’s something they inherited, even though they really don’t like it, you know, so, so I would suggest to do that. I would also suggest that there are factors that you can look at, meaning validity and reliability of the assessment. So.

The reliability basically is a consistency score. It’s going to continue to measure the same thing time and time again. Okay. And so it’s going to do that. The validity is it actually measures what it says it’s going to measure. That’s one of the problems with people will tell you DISC is a personality because it doesn’t measure your personality. It just measures your behavior. So there’s actually scores. So ask them for those statistics. All right. And they asked them to describe the statistics to you. If you don’t understand it yourself.

And then you can really tell the skill of the person who you’re interacting with, because they should be able to describe it to you, right? Not try, not just to sell you on it, but to tell you why, you you have confidence that it’s accurate and tell you why you have confidence that if the person’s behavior doesn’t change over time, what you’re going to get is not going to change that much over time either.

Michael Smith
Yeah, thank you. Well, we’ve seen firsthand how it’s helped us improve communication or understand each other and stuff. man, I’d love to know, do you have a favorite story how you’ve seen it unlock communication in a team or even maybe resolve conflict or using this information has helped out?

Michael Abelson
I have so many stories. I don’t know where to start, but I’ll start with this one because it was the upper levels and I’m not going to divulge it too much. upper levels in the federal government. Okay. It was an area where there you have the federal government and the military. Okay. And you have the non-military and they hated each other. They literally hated each other. And I went in, to DC and within four or five months using these tools, they loved each other. They were operating as one unit.

Okay. Which is really phenomenal because here you have two different aspects of the federal government. Okay. Uh, and they’re out at odds with each other, isn’t really good. Okay. But all of a sudden within a couple of months and I’m coming in from Texas, I’m not living okay. In the DC area, I’m coming in from Texas and these assessments are so good. Our skills are so good. They were able to bring these almost 30 people together to trust each other and to work together as if they were one team.

right, which is really, really important because you have all these, you know, different funnels within organizations, okay, and stovepipes in organizations. And the best ones are the ones that have porous boundaries with those stovepipes. So they effectively interact with each other. And if you’re working with somebody who really knows what they’re doing, you know, and there are a lot of us out there, but if you’re working with somebody who really knows what they’re doing, they can help you open up to these communications. And so people…

feel much more confident, not just for the communication, but they start trusting the person that the communication is coming from when they may not have trusted them before.

Sam Donaghey
Dr. Abelson, what are some of the biggest mistakes you see companies make when they start using behavioral assessments? Are there any common misconceptions that sort of trip people up?

Michael Smith
Thank you.

Michael Abelson
Well, number one, are so many misconceptions about this gets ridiculous. I don’t even want to get into that. But what one of the biggest issues is to start labeling people. All right. You’re a D or you’re an I, you’re an S or you’re a C. I hate to tell you this, but it’s really difficult for anybody to be a pure of any one of those. Almost everybody is a blend of at least two or three of those different styles, probably all four of the different styles. So the labeling factor.

⁓ is number one. Number two, you should never use any assessment as a filter because if you’re using it as a filter for employment, you’re assuming that it’s 100 % accurate. All right? And there is no assessment out there that’s 100 % accurate. So we follow, and Michael, you know this, even though you’re not using it for hiring, we use the a third, the a third, the a third rule.

Sam Donaghey
Hmm.

Michael Abelson
You should never use no matter how many assessments you have for more than a third of the decision. You need to also look at all the information that you have before the person has come and interacted with you. And the final third should be what you find in the interview process. And you should use all of those areas. Never use an assessment for filter, but more and more organizations are doing it because it’s very, very efficient. Okay, you know, and they do that. And we coach all of our clients. They don’t listen to me all the time.

but we coach all of our clients to never say, well, you’re not a fit because of the assessment, so we’re not going to pursue things further.

Sam Donaghey
following on from that, you’ve worked with thousands of companies. What separates the ones that really use behavioral insights? Well, from those that just check the box.

Michael Abelson
The ones that use the actual reports and don’t just look at the graphs, okay, there’s a lot of organizations that just look at the graphs. And as I said before, the graphs put other people, other organizations graphs put people in one in 24 boxes, all right, behaviorally. We put somebody in one of 384 boxes behaviorally, but how many billions of people are there in the world? Okay, so you can’t just look at the graphs, you need to look at the report.

And so it needs to be a report that’s easily understood and gives you information. example, ours looks at, we have the whole page on how to communicate with somebody. We have another whole page on how not to communicate with somebody. If you just look at the graph, you don’t get the richness of the blending that goes into creating those parts of the report.

Michael Smith
dig into the report and try to do some one-on-one coaching between the team lead and the new team member in that. And the, just let you know, the report we use is like 49 to 50 pages. There’s so much information. takes sessions to even just to get through it as we go there.

Michael Abelson
aspect is the report. Our report is not boilerplate. Of that 45 to some over 50 pages, like 90 % of it is about that person. And it’s custom to that person. Whereas so many of these reports are boilerplate where they stick somebody’s name in. And you can see that they just stuck somebody’s name in this box. It’s not really helpful because how accurate can it really be?

Sam Donaghey
Yeah.

Right.

Michael Smith
So you’ve been doing this work for decades and man, have you seen big shifts in people development inside organizations? Are we making progress in that or are we got blind spots that are still there and new things showing up?

Michael Abelson
Well, there’s always new stuff going on and there’s always new fads that are going on. And ⁓ the thing that I typically say is people are people. We changed, there’s different generational types of things that are going on that are good as frameworks to get an idea of where the person might be coming from. But you can’t just look at generational and say that they’re lazy or they’re digitally oriented or they don’t know how to communicate. I mean, that’s not true for an individual.

I mean, you need to focus and do those types of things and have things change. Yeah, the more things change, the more they become the same. So we see different fads, we see different issues. When I use assessments, it’s important not, truthfully, Michael, not to worry about those types of things. It’s important to look at the assessment, to look at the individual that’s staring you in the face.

that’s the best way to do it, to just get away from these assumptions.

Okay. That that are going on. They’re good as initial filters. The good is an idea to, to, give you some structures to where to go. But the reports really, if it’s a good report, it really shows you where to go. We actually have videos to show people how to use the reports, even if they don’t go through any of our other training, which is, which is really, really helpful, you know, for hot, know, for onboarding or for team building, those types of things.

Michael Smith
We’re a big proponent of building relationships through conversations. And we look at this report, the assessment report is a catalyst for conversation. And the more we talk to each other, that just builds humility and transparency and authenticity. And that’s really where vulnerability-based trust starts from. And that’s what builds a great organization for us.

Michael Abelson
Absolutely. And trust, the main way to develop trust is through honest and respectful communication. Okay. And, and, and the more you understand how somebody likes to be communicated with, we have another page that looks at how not to communicate with them, which in some people is even more important than how to communicate with them. All right. But, ⁓ so, so yes, I mean, trust, especially with teams is paramount. If there’s one thing that destroys teams, it’s distrust.

Michael Smith
Absolutely.

Michael Abelson
And the other thing is the lack of respect for your colleagues.

Sam Donaghey
Dr. Abelson, your own career spans teaching, research, consulting, and you’ve even shared stages with Zig Ziglar. What would you say one leadership lesson that stuck with you across all of those experiences?

Michael Abelson
the, for me, you need to be yourself. You need to be genuine. You need to figure out what that means for you. And then you need to double down on your strengths. Okay. And stay away from your limitations. A lot of people focus on improving their limitations and they get lost in what their strengths are.

Focus on who you are. There are as many leadership styles as there are people in this world.

All right. So figure out who you are, because what’s going to happen is people are looking at you at how genuine are you? Okay. How much do you respect me? Right. How much am I willing to follow you because you’re doing the right thing? You’re a principled leader, right? You’re, you’re not doing, you know, telling people to do things that you wouldn’t do yourself, but you need to understand yourself and you need to not lie to yourself regarding what that means. mean, if you’re not real supportive,

Sam Donaghey
Hmm.

Michael Abelson
like an S, okay, and you know, on the DISC, you know, and you’re much more of a D where you’re demanding and you’re competitive, you know, don’t try and be an S because people are going to see through it, right? You need to focus on what you can do and then rely on the S to bring the team together because that’s their strengths. Again, what I mean is, what I said before, you need to have respect for other people or respect what they bring to the team.

Michael Smith
Yeah.

Yeah, we lean into this phrase that says the greatest predictor of success for leaders, and we consider everybody a leader in our organization, the greatest predictor of success for leaders is self-awareness. You can understand what you bring to the team, what you don’t bring to the team, and realize that you need everybody on your team to be a success. That’s when we become a ⁓ much better organization. Let’s step back for just a minute away from the DISC and stuff and just think holistically for a minute.

For leaders listening today who want to build a healthy, motivated, aligned team, what’s one thing they can do this week to get it started?

Michael Abelson
Well, I’m going to give you two things. You’ll see I kind of break the boundaries all the time. But number one, this is one we just talked about, and that is to understand yourself. So sit down in retrospect and understand yourself. If you have taken an assessment and it’s accurate, pull the darn thing out and read it again and look at it. There are a lot of good assessments out there. The other thing that you can do today is

Sam Donaghey
Heh.

Michael Abelson
If you’re not using assessments, maybe you should consider using assessments. right? All right. If you’re already using assessment, maybe what you should do is go back and evaluate whether it’s the type of assessment you should be using and whether it’s really helping you or not. Okay. You know, cause these are concrete ways to really move forward and get help and understand what’s going on. I mean, you guys use it internally to help each other, understand each other.

which is such so key and so important, right? But if you’re using the wrong assessment and it’s not accurate, you’re not being fair to the other people, right? So go back, if you’re buying into the use of assessments, make sure you’ve got one that’s good.

Sam Donaghey
Well, as we wrap up, we always ask our guests for a quote or a piece of advice that’s inspired them. So Dr. Abelson, is there a quote that you’d like to leave our listeners with today?

Michael Abelson
Sure, and I say this in all my training, it’s never about you, it’s always about them. Okay, and to be an effective leader, especially you need to realize that it’s never about you and it’s always about them. And if you’re a father, it’s the same thing. And if you’ve got kids, it’s the same thing. And if you’re married, it’s the same thing. All right, the more you turn things around and you put yourself in other people’s shoes or you interact with them respectfully.

and you’re genuine with who you are and with who they are, that’s the way to be successful in life. You might not be the richest person in the world, all right, but you’re gonna be able to look in the mirror every morning when you wake up and say, you’re doing an okay job, or woman, that type of thing.

Michael Smith
thank you for being here today and sharing with us. And I want to personally thank you for how you invested in me and the insights I’ve gained under your teaching. And it’s made a huge impact on how I lean into individuals and try to get the best out of them as we get there. As we close, I’d love for our leaders, our listeners to understand how they can connect with you. So how can they get in touch with you?

Michael Abelson
Well, again, I’m going to give you a couple things. right. If you like email, it’s real easy. My email is dr.a, okay, at abelson, A-B-E-L-S-O-N dot net. Okay. Or if you’re an old fashioned and you like to call us, the telephone number is 888-ABLESON. So spelled the same way.

Michael Smith
Thank you, Dr. Abelson, we appreciate you being here.

Michael Abelson
Thank you, and it’s a pleasure. It’s a pleasure interacting and working with you again, Michael.

Sam Donaghey
Well, that wraps up today’s episode of the Fast Slow Motion podcast. A huge thank you to Dr. Michael Abelson for joining us and for sharing such valuable insights on how behavioral science can really help you build a better team. We’re going to drop a link to Dr. Abelson’s site and resources in the show notes, so be sure to check that out. And if you haven’t already, make sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast platform. And you can browse past episodes at fastslowmotion.com slash podcast.

If you’ve got a topic that you’d like us to cover or a question about today’s conversation, we’d love to hear from you at fastslowmotion.com slash podcastfeedback. So thanks for listening and we’ll see you again next time.